Interview: Daniel Ogden's Werewolf in the Ancient World.

Daniel Ogden (Author): Thank you for inviting me!

Kelly (WHE): Of course, we're glad you could come. Can you tell us something about your new book?

Daniel: This is actually the first book devoted to the theme of werewolves in the ancient world. There are countless books about werewolves, but none of them are specifically aimed at the ancient world. This book tries to understand the ancient evidence itself and find out the ancient world's views on the werewolf theory. But perhaps the most important contribution is to try to connect ancient evidence with more modern evidence, that is, medieval evidence. /kloc-in the 0/2nd century, the theme of werewolf in medieval literature, English and French, French and Nordic literature suddenly rose. Since then, there has been a continuing tradition. In early modern times, many things have changed, but there is still a continuous tradition. The view of modern people is directly related to the werewolf of12nd century.

The ancient evidence came from Homer in the 7th century BC and gradually disappeared around 400 AD. Before the werewolf reappeared in the12nd century, we kept almost 800 years of complete radio silence to the werewolf. There are two obvious assumptions. First, people in the 12 century were reading ancient books and suddenly became interested in werewolves and started over. This is a very reasonable suggestion. Another more interesting choice is that werewolves are basically deeply rooted in European folklore. They have always been, and they suddenly appeared, just like the ancient world for centuries. Then in the dark ages, they went underground again, and then appeared more or less, because they appeared as early as 12 century. My argument is that the second hypothesis, which is also more interesting, is correct.

Kelly: So, we don't necessarily know where this myth originated. Did it suddenly appear?

"I think werewolves belong to this story. The werewolf's home is a bonfire horror story, and it has always been. " Daniel Ogden

Daniel: No, we don't know where it came from. This is also a controversial issue. Some people will say that the concept of werewolf doctrine is a conceptual projection of young soldiers. Many ancient and more modern societies have this kind of culture, and it is an unfounded idea to put transitional youth and mature youth in a certain warrior group. In the ancient world, they were usually lightly armed soldiers sent to patrol community borders, not heavily armed serious soldiers. They will argue that many societies have this tradition of young soldiers, and werewolves are a way to think that young people become these somewhat barbaric and undisciplined marginal soldiers. I don't believe it myself.

I should say this is a very interesting case, but I don't think werewolves are produced from such social or cultural customs. I think werewolves belong to stories. The werewolf house is a bonfire horror story, and it has always been. This is a very striking and powerful idea in itself, and then it is used as a metaphor by society in different ways. In fact, the concept of this young warrior band can be associated with the pre-existing concept of werewolf, but there are other things. For example, it can be associated with the concept of disease, which we found in the ancient world.

Kelly: When you think of young people becoming men, you may use many other wild animals. They may be more suitable than wolves. It doesn't necessarily make me think you have anything to do with wolves. So, your hypothesis is reasonable.

Daniel: Looking at the cultures all over the world, why is it a werewolf and why not a human rabbit? I hate to talk about the general characteristics of werewolves, which is beyond the concept that people may become wolves again. I don't want to add anything more to our basic definition of this concept. But one thing is really very common in ancient evidence and medieval folklore, and that is the concept of "entering the forest". The phrase "into the Woods" often appears. A man will become a wolf when he runs into the Woods, and sometimes he will become a wolf when he runs into the Woods. However, the name of Stephen Sondheim's latest musical always has this concept, which is a very, very good choice and symbolizes our folk history.

But I do think it has something to do with something basic. Maybe it has something to do with werewolves. On the one hand, werewolves embody the transition or opposition or negotiation between civilized human beings and wild animals. If you do this, you will understand that choosing wolves may have some meaning, because in a sense, wolves may be considered as the ultimate wild animals. I think another factor is actually that very, very widely distributed wolves are about the same size as humans, at least bigger wolves can. The transformation between man and wolf is easy to imagine, but the transformation between man and rabbit is not easy to imagine.

Kelly: So, just as they choose animals closest to humans, I think the dichotomy between civilized people and barbarians can be traced back a long time. If you think of Gilgamesh's epic, The Forgotten and Enkidu balance each other and learn from each other.

Daniel: That's a good point. be

Kelly: Has this continuous history changed a lot? I know we had that dark period, but is this just a person's idea of becoming a wolf, going to the Woods and then becoming a person? Or has a specific point changed?

Daniel: Well, the concept that men become wolves repeatedly, I think many people will think it is an indispensable part of the modern concept of werewolf.

Kelly: What about the full moon?

Daniel: Well, that's another matter. As far as our evidence is concerned, this may have started in the Middle Ages. This is not necessarily the typical view of werewolves in the ancient world. However, there is a particularly beautiful story about werewolves in the ancient world, which was told by Petronius. Patronius' novel Satricon tells this story. This is the story of a nouveau riche, Trimalchio, hosting a dinner party. He used to be a slave, but now he is a free man. He has no education at all, but he likes to brag about his education, so these myths are all wrong. At some point in the dinner party, he exchanged a bonfire horror story with one of his freemen, Nicelos. The story of Neselos is about a werewolf, so he told a story, which is said to start from his past as a slave. Although he is a slave, he has a girlfriend who runs a bar. The time is a little vague, but it seems that I set out to visit her at night. The host was accompanied by a military friend, and the military friend decided to go together.

They are walking on the road, which is a road with graves on both sides. Once, the soldier stopped to pee on the grave. Cyrus stood there, whistling with his hands in his pockets. When he turned around, he found that the soldiers had put all his clothes. Then he peed around his clothes and turned into a wolf and ran away. So Nesselos went to the pile of clothes to get them back safely, or went to see what happened and found that they had turned to stone. Peeing in this circle is obviously magical, and it is obviously to protect clothes. He is very scared now. In any case, he is on a serious road. As he ran, he imagined that he was attacked by ghosts from all directions and finally arrived at his girlfriend's house.

The bar is also a farm. His girlfriend told him that he should get there early because a wolf got into the sheep and was killing them. One of their slaves pierced his neck with a spear, and he ran away with the wound on his neck. The next morning, on his way home, Neselos passed by the grave with clothes. The clothes are gone, and there is blood everywhere. When he finally got home, he found his military friend lying in bed, and the doctor was treating the wound on his neck. At that moment, he realized he was a werewolf. You might think, well, when you saw him turn into a wolf, he might have realized it. But even so, he said, "I refuse to break up with him again." I should also say that while this is going on, there is a full moon, or it may be said that the moon is shining brightly.

Kelly: It still mentions the moon as if it were important.

Daniel: Yes, of course. So this is a great story with many important ideas. Interestingly, this guy said that when he found the soldier with a broken neck lying in bed, he realized that he was a werewolf. In the stories of the late Middle Ages in Europe, identifying wounds is a very common theme. I think you can regard its power as an existing theme in the ancient world, because as I said just now, it is really illogical in the context of the Petronius story. When he saw his transformation, he knew he was a werewolf, but it was obviously a very basic and deep-rooted theme. You can identify werewolves by recognizable wounds.

Of course, one more thing to comment on is the importance of keeping clothes safe. This theme is not further explained in the ancient context, but it is not necessary; Obviously. Why do werewolves need to take care of their clothes? Well, we can easily guess that this is because he needs his clothes if he wants to be human again. The idea of keeping clothes safe because you rely on them to become human became more developed in the Middle Ages.

There is a view that werewolf doctrine is cyclical, not a one-time change.

Kelly: It's interesting, because I don't think werewolves in popular culture have been explained. In the movie, when you see someone tearing his clothes and turning into a werewolf, you will think,' Well, when you become a human again, will your clothes come back or will you walk home naked'? I won't explain this.

Daniel: Another thing worth mentioning about this story is that although we only saw him turn into a wolf once, it can obviously be assumed that it happened repeatedly. The last sentence "I refuse to share bread with him again" is obviously because he is worried that this kind of thing will happen again and he may be eaten by wolves. There is a view that werewolf doctrine is cyclical, not a one-time change. This is very important in the concept of modern werewolf.

Kelly: Of course, and the fact that he peed around his clothes shows that he obviously knows what he should do.

Daniel: Yes, of course, it also means that werewolves also have magical powers. We can't pee around clothes and turn them into stones.

Kelly: Are werewolves regarded as negative or respected in culture? Is it a good thing to have werewolves?

Daniel: There are many explanations. Strangely, in the ancient world, some reference materials seemed quite neutral. Sometimes we hear that wizards will turn themselves into wolves.

Kelly: So, they are not always men?